Radarspotting

Hello everyone,

I am new to radarspotting and have a few questions:

- Is it legal to use Mode-S receivers in Belgium?
and
- Is it possible to track all kinds of military aircraft with it?
  I mostly spot military aircraft and so it would be nice to see what's flying around(like F16's and C130's).
  I use Flightradar24 to spot civil aircrafts but it doesn't show any military.

I hope you guys can help me!

Regards,
TTECH

Answer 1,
No, Mode S or ADSB wont track any Mil flights or for that matter lots of turbo props DHC8`s or ERJ`s - as far as I know only plane plotter can use MLAT to track Military most of the time.

No doubt one of the regulars will be able to explain a little more..

Hope that helps a little,
Smudger.

Alright, thanks for the answer.

Does anyone have more information about it?

Hi TTECH welcome to the forum, I'll have a go at answering your questions but I don't profess to have all of the solutions, but here goes for a start......

Using a mode-S receiver in Belgium, I have no idea on that I'm in the UK, but I guess looking at the coverage on FR24 and on the PlanePlotter (PP) networks, some folk do share their data but you should check for yourself to be sure.

PP will track Mode-S only aircraft using the Multilateration (Mlat) system. It uses a reference ADS-B equipped aircraft (known position) and then analyses the timing of the reception of Mode-S signals at several locations (sharer locations) by triangulation to determine the position of the target. This is incredibly accurate in my experience, as long as you have at least 5 sharers uploading their "raw" data to the PP network.

If there aren't sufficient sharers in your location you might be able to locate the aircraft using PP's "Beamfinder" function which uses the return signals from the aircraft in response to interrogation from radar heads. You need to compile your own file of radar locations and head rotation speeds for this to work, but if Mlat doesn't work it's a great alternative.

I hope that helps you a bit,

Tim

Hi TTECH

I know it's not military, and only a humble O'Leary cattlewagon, but this is how Beamfinder works on PlanePlotter. There is no MLAT in my corner of Spain, so I have to rely on Beamfinder. As Tim says, there might well be a ready made radar.txt file for your area which you can use. The PlanePlotter Yahoo group is an excellent place to get more help and information.

Stephen

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Here's the situation at present over Belgium [ mlats only ]

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Thanks for the answers everyone!
I still have some questions, but I already have a better idea of it.

My main goal is to see military aircraft at low altitude because most of the times I go spotting to a military air base in my environment.
So it would be nice to see what's possible coming in or what's flying around.
But I think this is a bit of dreaming because:
- I have read that it isn't easy to receive signals of an aircraft below 10000ft
- I don't think there are much radar users in my area(I may be wrong), so it will most likely be the Beamfinder method

I'll start with another question:

- As there fly mainly  military aircraft around here(SF-260, helicopters, F16...), will I be able to see them on radar when they are flying low and how accurate? I have never seen them on something like Flightradar24 before instead here:
http://www.live-military-mode-s.eu/ (Belga Radar)

In case it's possible, I am interested in this system because it would be much easier to know when some nice visitors are going to land/flying over, if it's legal.

Already thanks for the help!

Regards,
TTECH

Yo can see how many sharers for the PP network are in your zone:

https://www.coaa.co.uk/pp-user-charts.htm

Thanks.
Looks like there are only two to three sharers are online in Belgium.

,,,,and as regards not seeing mlats below 10,000 feet , that again depends on your local countymen...if there are enough ground station sharers , traffic down to 100 feet or below can be seen.

This image shows UK helicopter traffic at low level.

http://satcomuk.yolasite.com/resources/SHAWhelos.gif (http://satcomuk.yolasite.com/resources/SHAWhelos.gif)

We often see Dutch traffic at low level , but further south , across the border we only have a few sharers.

Ok so in the worst case... when I am the only receiver in my area, I will need to use the Beamfinder method(mlats won't work)
How accurate is it and what's the minimum altitude it will see and how far? Will it see ALL mil  aircraft in it's coverage?

Regards,
TTECH

Which receiver are you using ?

As regards Mlat ...its a chicken and egg situation.
Five years ago Mlat for the enthusiast didnt exist.It took a small group of us to push the limits and slowly develop a small network across North West England...gradually the network expanded as we recruited more sharers and now we have about 2000 sharers , over 800 of those are involved in supplying data for Mlats.

If you are keen to see low level and mil aircraft , then you need to encourage others , via the aviation groups , to join you and quite quickly a local network will develop.

Forgot to add

At the moment , there are a handful of F16s across the border to your north



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Thanks for sharing! The F16's should come here.. :)

I don't have a receiver yet. I first want to know if it's possible to do what I  want before making the investment.
I don't think many people that I know will pay for it.
Maybe it's a bit of dreaming right now ;)

Note: I see that FR24 offers a free receiver to sharers, would that work with Planeplotters(, and ofcourse FR24)?
http://www.flightradar24.com/free-ads-b-equipment

You may or may not be considered for  a free FR24 receiver. The offer is an excellent one.

However the receiver supplied is locked to the fR24 network as you would expect , so it will not provide raw data to PlanePlotter , consequently it will not help you in you
quest to see mil a/c

If you are serious about becoming a sharer and helping to expand the PP Mlat network across Belgium , then you could look out for one of the early , used , Kinetic receivers [SBS1] which appear from time to time on the auction sites for under 200 Euros.

Or, as I did, buy a 2nd hand Beast.  ;D

Thanks for the help guys.

I will wait a little before buying one.
I really ony want to invest the money when I'm sure it will do what I want.
I'm also going to introduce it to some friends and who knows.. :)

regards and have fun spotting,
TTECH

TTECH

I forgot to mention that using Beamfinder, I can locate aircraft down to about 900ft, depending on where they are in my local area and what radars can see them. In any direction, Beamfinder is reliable above 3500ft locally. I think the furthest I have located an aircraft using this method is about 220nm. The furthest I have located an aircraft flying at low level has been no more than 20nm though.

Stephen

That sounds better :-)
The air base is around 10km away from me, but not line of sight.
So I think I am happy if I can locate everything that's flying in  this radius, at any height.
So also below 900ft.

What information do you actually receive using the Beamfinder method?
Will it really locate ANY aircraft that's flying, like ULM aircraft?

QuoteI can locate aircraft down to about 900ft, depending on where they are in my local area and what radars can see them.

So you are also depended on other receivers?

I am surprised what's possible these days... :)
These things really bring spotting to the next level imo.

TTECH

Beamfinder works where the PlanePlotter network of receivers can't be used for MLAT. Here in Spain there are not enough suitable receivers (Kinetic family or Beast family) to be used for MLAT. This means that I have to rely on only my own receiver to detect aircraft not showing their positions.

In order to do this I first have to create a radar.txt file which contains the names, rotation rates and locations of the radars which are illuminating the aircraft that my receiver is detecting. Have a look at my attached screenshots to see what I mean. Please ignore the names of the radars on the rtl1090 screenshot, they are for Germany, but the radar identification tags are correct (such as SI13, II09, etc.)

The PlanePlotter software has a Beamfinder tutorial which goes into much more detail.

If all goes well, and you have produced an accurate radar.txt file for Beamfinder, you should be able to detect aircraft not revealing their positions using only your receiver, like this (see screenshot).

Stephen

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Thanks for explaining, Bethsalem.
It's already more clear now.
I will take a look at the tutorial.

In case everything is set up and ready to work,
I suppose I'll be able to spot all kinds of aircraft flying at low height in a coverage of around 10km, including military aircraft, helicopters, ULM's, sport,... aircraft?
I think it's logical because all aircraft are obligated to use a Mode S transponder, even at airshows.

I have had an SBS1 since 2005 and find it brilliant, plane plotter came along and gave me the military. Go on and invest, you wont look back.
Try a cheap dongle first before you buy expensive.

Regards

What are your suggestions for a dongle?
What's the main difference in performance between the 'bigger'.?

The R820T dongle is best for 1090MHz reception. In my opinion the most reliable suppliers are Nooelec, Cosycave and Jetvision.

A dongle is not now useable for MLAT on PlanePlotter, and I think it can only be used for Beamfinder Plus S, but not for Beamfinder or Beamfinder Plus.  :-\

But for 20 euros, a R820T dongle is well worth buying and experimenting with.

I'll take a look at it. Thanks!

It seems that it can do ADS-B?:
"This dongle can with  Planeplotter  and  RTL1090  ​​be used for the reception of Mode-S/ModeAC and ADS-B"
http://h2204566.stratoserver.net/SmartStore.NET/de/ezcap-rtl2832r820t#.Uy3lXPl5N8F

If you try out a R820T dongle it will let you see your local ModeS traffic. Ok you may not be able to locate them without MLAT but at least it will tell you what is in your location.

Then you can check to see whether those ModeS codes match to any aircraft.

Note that aircraft transmit a ModeS code bit do not transmit registration/serial. So unless someone has matched the code to a serial, you will not know which aircraft the code refers to!

For many US and German fighters, the code changes frequently so not possible to match ModeS code to serial. If Belgian Air Force is the same, you will not know the serial of that F-16 that just flew over  >:(

So a dongle is a cheap option to check things out.

So the dongle won't work with Beamfinder method?
What raw data will it receive? Only the 'hex' code?
But I will know what type of aircraft it is with the code?

If you know the hex code you should be able to tie it up with an aircraft type and registration using one of the many online resources such as Airframes.org.

Quote from: TTECH on March 24, 2014, 07:06:59 PM
So the dongle won't work with Beamfinder method?
What raw data will it receive? Only the 'hex' code?
But I will know what type of aircraft it is with the code?

It's been recently clarified over on the PlanePlotter Yahoo forum that the R820T dongle can be used for Beamfinder if the radar.txt file is accurate.

Beamfinder (whatever version) works with the dongle, at least mine one.

Ok I think I will order one then :)

Regards,
TTECH

Just ordered a dongle. Can't wait to test it out.

Is it actually possible to listen to AM airband radio with the r820t dongle?

Yes, with the correct antenna. The R820T dongle can search between 28MHz and 1750MHz approximately.

Ok thanks for the reply.

The SDR# software is what I use for listening to airband with a dongle.

http://rtlsdr.org/softwarewindows (http://rtlsdr.org/softwarewindows) has a guide, if you look under the 'Automated Installer' section there is a link to a download.

There is also a frequency manager plugin which allows you to set it up as a 'scanner' http://www.sdrsharpplugins.com/ (http://www.sdrsharpplugins.com/).

Cheers,

Keef.

Thank you.
I'll take a look at it.

I managed to get the R280T dongle working on my laptop.
What's the best way to start now?

This is a good place to get hardware, software and advice from to get your dongle receiving aircraft.

http://rtl1090.jetvision.de/

Thank you.
Is PlanePlotter free when feeding data?

To share data you need a one-off PP licence.  If you feed "regularly" as an approved Ground Station, you get free MLAT.

Okay I think I'll also have to pay for MLAT then.
I can't have always my computer turned on.

I have managed to set up the R820T dongle with PlanePlotter and it works!
I am now approved as Master User.

But my main goal is not reached yet: seeing ALL aircraft flying around me, +-10km at any height.
There are ULM planes flying around my house but I can't see them on PlanePlotter.
Mlat is configured and turned on so maybe there not enough Mlat users around me.
Sharing is also working and my receiver has succeeded all the network tests.

Should I try the Beamfinder method or am I doing something wrong?

(http://i58.tinypic.com/10gbj4n.jpg)

If you are unble to locate a/c using manual mlats then there are not enough ground stations around you
Remember that your rtl dongle does not provide useable data for the mlat system
at present.
That may change in due course

Why doesn't it provide usable Mlat data?
I have configured everything for Mlat.

Will the Beamfinder method work better in my case?

This has been well covered on the PP Yahoo group for the last couple of months.
There appears to be a timing issue with the dongles  making the raw data unuseable.

There is a chance that  this may eventually be resolved.

Meanwhile it will provide BF and BFPlus s     Beamfinding  providing your radar.txt file is accurate

Ok thanks for explaining.
I am trying to configure Beamfinder but when I open the 'Mode A/C radar pulse intervals' window, there are only yellow dots all in the same pattern.
Is that normal?

I am not sure what the current status is with rtl1090  software
When I last tested it you had to use a separate version for Mode A/C work.

Okay.
Do you know a good tutorial to set up beamfinder with R820T dongle?

Here is what I mean:
(http://i59.tinypic.com/ru90yp.jpg)

The RTL1090 software is set to 'Mode-A/C' instead of Mode-S now.

Should look like this

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Indeed.
Any reason for it?

Quote from: TTECH on April 05, 2014, 01:39:16 PM
Okay.
Do you know a good tutorial to set up beamfinder with R820T dongle?

You could try these three resources

http://planeplotter.pbworks.com/w/page/62409382/RTL1090

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U4HrK4tuTI

http://www.nicstorey.co.uk/planeplotter/

Thank you but nothing about Beamfinder :(
Seems that it's not possible to do it with the dongle.

Yes, it is possible with the dongle, but I think you have to know some things about all this stuff.

First of all, seeing EVERYTHING flying around you is almost impossible. Only aircrafts equipped with ADS-B system can be directly detected and seen on PlanePlotter. That means most commercial airliners (not all) and just some general aviation aircrafts. ADS-B is not mandatory in Europe for the later.

Mode S transponders does not transmit position info. You need at least 4 different stations detecting the Mode S aircraft to plot it on PlanePlotter using MLAT. You also need that stations in a good geometric location between them in order to get a decent fix. Once again remember Mode S is not mandatory in Europe for general aviation until 2020.

You can attempt to get a Mode S aircraft fix on your own using Beamfinder or Beamfinder Plus S. You need to create a "radar.txt" file with info about the exact location of Mode S radars in your zone and exact rotation speed for each radar. Note I say exact, otherwise results would be erratic. Another detail: to get a fix for an aircraft with an unknown position you need another aircraft with a known position (ADS-B) being interrogated by the same Mode S radar. If your aircraft is the only one in the zone you get nothing.

Aircrafts equipped with standard Mode A-C transponders can be detected with your dongle using Beamfinder Plus, but...:

- You need to add exact info about secondary surveillance radars to your radar.txt file.
- You need to configure RTL1090 to listen Mode A-C signals.
- You need again another known position aircfaft being interrogated by the same SSR as your aircraft.

And finally remember: aircrafts flying areas where the transponder use is not mandatory, could have it switched off or in stand-by position. By no means you can detect them.

A good summary, thank you.

- You need again another known position aircfaft being interrogated by the same SSR as your aircraft.


BF PLUS [ Mode A/C ] doesn't need a reference a/c , its totally standalone provided the correct radar.txt file is in force.

A couple of years ago the B2 leaving Fairford  after RIAT made the mistake of putting out short bursts  of Mode A , which enabled us to get fixes on its position as it  departed via the Irish Sea.
8)

Thanks for exlaining.
As I am located in a military CTR zone, I think that a transponder is obligated. Maybe it isn't in the weekend.
I have a few more questions, and the problem isn't solved yet:

1) So Beamfinder Plus is the only method that is independent on other aircrafts & radars. It uses Mode-A/C signals.
Beamfinder and Beamfinder Plus S are dependent on other aircrafts & radars. It uses Mode-S signals.
Am I right here?

2) If the information above is correct, then I prefer using Beamfinder Plus.
Now the problem is that I am trying to configure Beamfinder Plus using the following tutorial:
http://www.coaa.co.uk/bfplustutorial.htm

In the tutorial he says to open the 'Mode A/C radar pulse intervals' window in PlanePlotter.
When you do this, you should get green AND yellow dots, but when I do it, I only get yellow dots:
(http://i59.tinypic.com/ru90yp.jpg)
So I think there is something going wrong. I have set RTL1090 to Mode AC instead of Mode S.

Also, in the tutorial he says to go to 'View > Chart display options > Chart selected Mode-A radar pulse rate'
I can't click on 'Chart selected Mode-A radar pulse rate' because it's greyed out:
(http://i62.tinypic.com/5lx542.jpg)

RTL1090 window:
(http://i57.tinypic.com/w6qsns.jpg)

I hope we can solve the problem.

Regards,
Tibo

Quote from: satcom on April 06, 2014, 07:57:05 AM
- You need again another known position aircfaft being interrogated by the same SSR as your aircraft.


BF PLUS [ Mode A/C ] doesn't need a reference a/c , its totally standalone provided the correct radar.txt file is in force.

Thanks for clarifying. But now I don't understand what is the reference to determine the angular position of the radar head in a given time.

Quote from: TTECH on April 06, 2014, 09:10:43 AM
Also, in the tutorial he says to go to 'View > Chart display options > Chart selected Mode-A radar pulse rate'
I can't click on 'Chart selected Mode-A radar pulse rate' because it's greyed out:
(http://i62.tinypic.com/5lx542.jpg)

My experience says that if you don't receive enough valid signals, PP won't let you view the intervals nor logging them. But any more authorized voice on PP will explain you better than me.

The strange thing is that I can see that I am receiving Mode AC signals in RTL1090 but nothing in PlanePlotter.

I've set up a dongle again and I get the same results as TTECH. I see Mode A/C output in RTL1090 but nothing in PlanePlotter.

Those screenshots are the same as mine.

Ok then I'm not the only one...
I really can't find a solution for it.

I am going to try Beamfinder Plus S using Mode S signals.
It's remarkable that I don't have patterns in the signals like in the tutorials(see attachment) so maybe I can't use it also.

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Clearer image:

[Attachment deleted by Admin to save file space]

That isn't much different to mine.

I would suggest just following the PlanePlotter tutorials, ignore that you're using a dongle, and then log your radar pings, analyse them and hopefully you will be able to create a decent radar.txt file.

My radar.txt file isn't perfect. The Mode S radar sites are accurate, but I don't think the same can be said for my other ones  :), but I do have a working Beamfinder function which is better than nothing in the absence of MLAT.

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I have tried creating a radar.txt file using the Mode S radar interval logging but it inaccurate.
I can choose between:
'Log radar identifier pings' and 'Log mode s radar pulse interval pings'.
Which one should is good?

I found this on the internet, maybe that is reliable for the locations:
https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=zmuAYgd3KRPA.kuRfIJPGvyfs

Is it possible that an aircraft only sends Mode AC signals? If yes, I will not receive it if I'm using Mode S?

Regards;
Tibo

Take it one step at a time. You are trying to achieve in a few days what some of us are still trying to achieve after months of trial and error!

So you can't see some aircraft on the PP screen but are they being detected at all? Only those aircraft with known positions  (ADS-B or MLAT) show on screen but also take a look at the aircraft list (either press "a" or press the aircraft button on the toolbar - two different versions of the same output),

That will show what else is around (those with no latitude/longitude information). Anything of interest?

Hello IanH,

I have configured the Beamfinder method but it isn't accurate.
When I open the aircraft list(a), then I can see for example an F16 that isn't on the chart because it hasn't position information.
I would like to calculate it's position using Beamfinder but it doesn't work.
When I click on the aircraft name that I would like to designate in the aircraft list, there doesn't happen anything.
I can only see beams when I click on an aircraft that is on the chart or aircraft list when I am receiving it, not someone elso(other color).
I have put my radar.txt file in attachment.

Maybe the problem is the inaccurate radar.txt file, although it should show some beams when I click on an unpositioned aircraft in the aircraft list.

I have so many questions but I will start with this. ;)

[Attachment deleted by Admin to save file space]

Hi Tibo,

Have a read of the PP help file for 'Beamfinder' it will answer your question here and also the two others you have posted elsewhere, where you are unlikely to get a response - this is the place you need to be  ;D

Beamfinder only works on traffic you are receiving yourself, as it needs to have the SI or II identifiers, these are not - as far as I am aware - transmitted by the sharing server.

You do have F12 pressed don't you?

Tim

Hello Tim,

Thank you for the reply.

Actually that's very bad news...
I don't know what I can do now.
Mlat is not possible because there are not many users using it in Belgium.
So I can't find the position of an aircraft that I am not receiving in my area?
Maybe the best solution is buying a better antenna and see what that gives me.
I live near a military air base and there mostly fly A109's, NH90's and SF260's.
They flew less then 1000ft above my house today but I didn't receive anything. I only saw them in the 'aircraft list' window but I think the results were from other sharers.
So I thought I could locate them using Beamfinder.

F12 is checked.

I can't find a clear answer to my questions in the Help file. :D
I will paste them here from the other forum:

Quote2) What's the main difference between using Beamfinder(Mode-S)  and Beamfinder Plus(Mode-AC)?
I have heard that Mode-AC is better for lower altitudes, is that true?

3) Is it possible that an aircraft is only sending Mode-AC signals, and no Mode-S signals?
If yes, then I would not receive military aircraft using Mode-AC signals I suppose so there it is possible that I don't see all aircrafts.

4) Is it possible to see everything that my ground station(desktop pc) receives, also see it on my laptop when I am away from home?
I have tried Virtual Radar Server but it only shows the aircraft that my receiver receives, not the ones from other sharers.
It would be nice to follow everything when I am spotting at an air base somewhere.

Already thanks for the help everyone.

Tibo

QuoteWhen I open the aircraft list(a), then I can see for example an F16 that isn't on the chart because it hasn't position information.

OK - at least you are receiving something from the F-16. In the list that you see after clicking on the aircraft icon in the toolbar, are you the only person seeing it? For instance in my example, several other sharers are seeing G-FBJF and MLAT gives a location.

If you are not the only sharer, MLAT might work.

Have you tried MLAT on some other civil aircraft to see if it is working?

[Attachment deleted by Admin to save file space]

I am not sure if I'm the only one receiving it. I will take a look at it tomorrow.
I have tried Mlat on the F16 a few times but the pop up windows said that there was not enough data for it.
Mlat works with other civil aircraft.

OK - just checking that things are working as they should be.

Edit: And I'm surprised that there are not more PP users looking for military aircraft in Belgium given how popular Scramble website is (based in Netherlands).

I think you need to read a bit more about transponder basics, you'll have better understanding about all this. A couple of easy readings:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transponder_(aviation)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aviation_transponder_interrogation_modes

And now....

Quote from: TTECH on April 07, 2014, 09:05:27 PM
2) What's the main difference between using Beamfinder(Mode-S)  and Beamfinder Plus(Mode-AC)?
I have heard that Mode-AC is better for lower altitudes, is that true?

Not at all, they are simply different systems. Mode A-C radars are continuously interrogating aircrafts, which answer with a simple sqwak code (Mode A) or their barometric altitude (Mode C). Mode S radars make selective calls asking for a multitude of different messages to be answered by aircrafts. Maybe that idea comes from the fact that general aviation usually have Mode A-C transponders and fly lower levels.

Quote3) Is it possible that an aircraft is only sending Mode-AC signals, and no Mode-S signals?
If yes, then I would not receive military aircraft using Mode-AC signals I suppose so there it is possible that I don't see all aircrafts.

Yes, there are still many aircrafts with Mode A-C transponders. Single European Sky regulations say that new aircrafts built as of 2015 must have Mode S transponders, existing aircrafts should upgrade to Mode S transponder as of 2017, and air navigation service providers should guarantee Mode S capabilities as of 2020. So there's still a long way to go.

Quote4) Is it possible to see everything that my ground station(desktop pc) receives, also see it on my laptop when I am away from home?
I have tried Virtual Radar Server but it only shows the aircraft that my receiver receives, not the ones from other sharers.
It would be nice to follow everything when I am spotting at an air base somewhere.

Yes, you can publish your own PP main screen. Options -- Graphic output.

Hi Tibo,

I'll just add a few bits from the PP help file, together with a couple of examples from my radar.txt file:

Beamfinder

If PlanePlotter is used with a Mode-S receiver giving the appropriate raw data (currently SBS1, PGR, AVR/Beast, miniADSB, microADSB, SSRx), the identifier of the interrogating radar site can be determined from the air-to-ground Mode-S reply that PlanePotter picks up.

The radar heads rotate at speeds between 5 and 15 revolutions per minute (between 4 and 12 seconds per complete rotation). If PlanePlotter knows the identifier and the location of a specific radar site, together with its rotation rate, then any time that it receives a identified "ping" from an aircraft with a known position, it can determine the instantaneous azimuth of the radar beam from that radar site, at that precise instant.

Identified in your radar.txt file with 'SI' or 'II'

Example:

;KENT INTERNATIONAL
SI 36 51.348609 1.349953 7.50

Beamfinder Plus

This method is similar to the Beamfinder method except that it uses Mode-A/C radar pulses instead of Mode-S radar pulses. Currently, only the "Beast" and the SBS3 receivers provide Mode-A/C data in a format that this feature can use.

Identified in your radar.txt file with 'ZZ'. However, you will not be able to use Beamfinder Plus with a R820T dongle.

Example:

ZZ 0.006599 37.195 -8.600 12.123 3 (from the PP help file as I can't receive Mode A and C pulses)

Beamfinder Plus S

This method is similar to the Beamfinder method except that it uses the timing of the Mode-S radar pulses instead of the IID attached to some Mode-S radar messages.

So if you log the radar timings then you may be able to use that as well. Identified in your radar.txt file with 'ZS'

Example:

;BOURNEMOUTH
ZS 0.005560 50.778363 -1.841266 15.894

If you want to see your screen remotely, Teamviewer is good for that.

Hopefully this and the other replies will help you sort things out.

Tim

Thank you for the answers everyone!
I am starting to understand everything better now.

QuoteOK - just checking that things are working as they should be.

Edit: And I'm surprised that there are not more PP users looking for military aircraft in Belgium given how popular Scramble website is (based in Netherlands).

Scramble is more Netherlands oriented.
https://www.coaa.co.uk/pp-user-charts.htm#1
It seems that there are around six PP users in Belgium, me included. But they are only Sector Master Users (white) and other uploading sharers (yellow) so I don't know if they are suitable for Mlat.

I saw some Belgian Air Force F16's, C130's and SF260's on PlanePlotter this morning.
I was only able to find to location of one F16 using Mlat. For the other aircraft, there was not enough data(PP sharers) and were only a little time visible on the Aircraft List.
I know that they all have a transponder here, but I don't receive all of them.

I will take a look at Teamviewer. Although, I will need internet outside of my house so maybe a 3G network will work with my laptop and Teamviewer.

What are your suggestions for me? Is my 'mission' not realistic?
Not enough MLAT users here in Belgium. Beamfinder not accurate with my dongle.

Maybe I can buy a better antenna and see if I get better results.
I am also thinking about the Mode-S Beast or SBS-3.

What do you think?

Regards,
Tibo

Edit:
You can see 3 pictures of some military aircraft that was on my Aircraft List.
Again, not enough Mlat sharers for finding the location.
Beamfinder doesn't show beams when I click on the aircraft in the list.
Will PlanePlotter automaticly search for the location or do I have to manually 'Shift + Click' it everytime?




[Attachment deleted by Admin to save file space]

Hi Tibo,

OK, I'll try and have a stab at some suggestions.

Firstly, your radar.txt file, I can't see any location names in your one - not that it matters but it just makes it harder to determine where they are. I have used the co-ordinates to roughly determine a close by town / city:

SI 06 near Jalons
SI 44 near Eupen
SI 55 near Vaux-Les-Rubigny
SI 60 Near Meeuwen
SI 62 near Anschau
SI 22 near Gulpen

You don't need repetitive locations in your file, just one entry for each radar head. You can leave any unknown's or questionable ones in but add a semi colon ";" to the start of the line = text entry and is ignored.

You should also be aware that due to some technical stuff about how aircraft respond to radar interrogations (someone else can explain that) radar heads that are close to you don't very often produce good results. In fact in some cases those that are 400km away do offer a better chance as the plane in question is way outside the range that that radar head covers. However, if you are interested only in military stuff which is at low level, you may be expecting too much from the system due to the target being below the radar horizon  :(

Also don't forget that radar heads in Germany are sometimes clustered meaning one identifier can cover more than one radar head so that makes it useless for beamfinder - that's not PP's fault either  ;)

You may like to try running your evaluation for radar heads for a longer period and see if you get some from the UK, those coupled with some from France may give you a better spread.

In connection with Teamviewer, I had rather assumed that for you to see your desktop PC remotely you had some form of internet connection available to you. Even a free WiFi will work, if you can find one.

Shift+Click initiates an Mlat. Beamfinder starts as soon as you single click on an appropriate target in the list - it takes maybe a minute to do its thing but then the beams appear. Not forgetting the altitude problem noted above.

Tim

Thank you for the clear answer, Triple7!

I will run the radar evaluation log for a longer time today or tomorrow.
How long would you suggest to get better results?
Also, I can click on 'Log radar identifier pings' or 'Log Mode-S radar interval pings'.
I only tried the last one till now so that means I only have configured Beamfinder Plus S.
I will try 'Log radar identifier pings' now for Beamfinder.

Would it be possible to combine Beamfinder and Beamfinder Plus S log results into one radar.txt file?
I am little confused now :)

There is no WiFi at the spotters corner of the military air base, but maybe I can try a 3G/4G network.

Regards,
Tibo

edit:
Strange thing is, in the Help file they say you have to do 'Log Mode-S radar interval pings' for Beamfinder Plus S and 'Log radar identifier pings' for Beamfinder.
I only have done   'Log Mode-S radar interval pings' till now but I get Beamfinder(SI, II,...) results in my radar.txt file, instead of Beamfinder Plus S(ZZ...).

Hi Tibo,

If you have only logged Mode-S radar interval pings, then your radar.txt file should contain entries similar to this:

;BOURNEMOUTH
ZS 0.005560 50.778363 -1.841266 15.894

However, yours shows II and SI entries which are Beamfinder radar identifier pings i.e. the original Beamfinder using the radar identifier, location and rotation speed. Bedmfinder Plus S uses the interval (timing) of the pulses. (see above description of each method).

You certainly can (and should) have a mixture of SI, II and ZS entries and of course with the right receiver you could add ZZ entries as well - all in the one radar.txt file.

Initially we only ran the radar log for 15 mins, but then it was suggested you could run for longer maybe 30 mins or even an hour, the results may not be as accurate in terms of derived location but you might get a better selection of what's available to you. You can then refine your recordings over different times to try and produce a better radar.txt file.

If you can't convince McDonald's to open a "restaurant" where you need one and offer free WiFi, 3/4G is the next best thing albeit not free.

Good luck,

Tim

Thanks Tim!

So it would be the best to run the the radar identifier log AND the mode-s interval log?

I just configured TeamViewer and it works as it should.
I have also configured a 3G network with my laptop using my phone(tethering).

How much data should TeamViewer consume when using PlanePlotter remotely?
Honestly, I think that a 3G network will be too slow.
In worst case, I would have to transport my whole setup to the spotter area, but then PlanePlotter isn't configured for home location.

Regards,
Tibo

edit:
I just tried TeamViewer with 3G. That's slow!
I think that will not work   :D

Quote from: TTECH on April 08, 2014, 06:59:38 PM
So it would be the best to run the the radar identifier log AND the mode-s interval log?

Yes, absolutely.

Quote
How much data should TeamViewer consume when using PlanePlotter remotely?

I really have no idea on that, sorry

Quote
I just tried TeamViewer with 3G. That's slow!
I think that will not work   :D

I that case you could always get things set up at home and buy a second dongle for mobile use and as long as your 'spotters corner' isn't too far away from your home location, you should find your radar.txt file will work when mobile. I still have a feeling you might be disappointed with the results due to the traffic (potentially) being at such a low altitude.

Tim

Thanks for the answer again, Tim :)

QuoteI that case you could always get things set up at home and buy a second dongle for mobile use and as long as your 'spotters corner' isn't too far away from your home location, you should find your radar.txt file will work when mobile. I still have a feeling you might be disappointed with the results due to the traffic (potentially) being at such a low altitude.

That's a good idea indeed!
So I will install PlanePlotter on my laptop and registrate it(I think the license works for multiple computers).
And actually, it's a better situation:
- PlanePlotter will run at my home with a 'big' antenna setup
- PlanePlotter will run at the spotters area with the 'mobile' antenna setup
So maybe MLAT will work better as there will be two receivers, one on site and one at home.
The air base is around 10km away from me.

QuoteI still have a feeling you might be disappointed with the results due to the traffic (potentially) being at such a low altitude.

But it's only 10km away from me and I will mount a better antenna on my roof.
Shouldn't that be good enough?

Today there was much traffic at the air base but I think that I only received 10% of it.

Regards,
Tibo

Hi Tibo,

If you are thinking of Mlat, then you are not going to be be very happy in a few seconds .........

Using a PC with RTL1090, does not provide sufficient raw data for Mlat to work, you need a more expensive receiver, SBS, Beast or even the MicroADSB stick (there are others too). The cheap dongles don't work - yet. Now, there maybe some development that improves the situation but nothing is certain. It would appear that using a Raspberry Pi with the very same dongle and Dump 1090 does work. This is a Linux based system and it might be quite complicated to get it working when mobile as you need some form of screen / keyboard to see what's happening. Maybe a laptop running windows, network crossover cable to the Pi running Linux and to see what the Pi is doing use PuTTY.

My understanding was you were focusing on Beamfinder which should work with the Dongle but as we have discussed, the radar information is not shared, but beamfinder fixes can be, have a look in Options>>sharing>>set-up and on the left hand side in the box labelled 'Download' check Beamfinder fixes. That way you might see some fixes that others have initiated.


All good fun,

Tim

Hello Tim,

It's not very bad news I think, because that is maybe the reason why Mlat doesn't work always or as good as it should.
So till now, I always used Mlat with the help of other users receivers, not mine.
That also means that I can use Mlat on my mobile laptop when I'm running PP without a suitable receiver.
I really thought that I was providing Mlat data :)

I have in mind to buy a Beast receiver, but I am comparing to the SBS-3 and some others.

As for Beamfinder, I am running another log evaluation now.
Hopefully I will get better results.

Thanks for the help!

Regards,
Tibo

Probably of little interest but my recollection is that Dump1090 will work on any PC with Debian on it, not just the Raspberry Pi.

When Dump1090 was first being tested some time ago with PlanePlotter, I successfully compiled Dump1090 on a PC - maybe it was being considered as an alternative to other decoders, or just testing the compilation process? Cannot remember much more - the PP Yahoo group will have more info, if you can find it  :-X

Maybe I should try that again  ;)

I can't answer your question IanH :)

I can't get Beamfinder work with mil aircrafts, even when I receive them.
No beams showing up.
The beams only show up when I designate a positioned aircraft.
I will try to refine the radar.txt file.

Here is the current military traffic:(see attachment)

Is it possible to filter aircraft on country(not sorting) in the list? I can't find a correct coditional expression.
Do I really need NTP for using MLAT?

Regards,
Tibo


[Attachment deleted by Admin to save file space]

Ian,

Have you selected 'View/Chart display options/Beamfinder' and ticked 'Beamfinder labels'. If you do, do you see the radar ident codes in the labels of any non-positional aircraft?

Tom

Last message probably for Tibo rather than me  ;)

Quote from: viking9 on April 11, 2014, 11:56:01 AM
Ian,

Have you selected 'View/Chart display options/Beamfinder' and ticked 'Beamfinder labels'. If you do, do you see the radar ident codes in the labels of any non-positional aircraft?

Tom

Yes it it checked.
Where can I see the ident codes in the Aircraft List?

Quote from: IanH on April 11, 2014, 12:09:44 PM
Last message probably for Tibo rather than me  ;)

Oops - yes, Sorry Ian.

Tom

Quote from: TTECH on April 11, 2014, 01:53:33 PM

Quote from: viking9 on April 11, 2014, 11:56:01 AM
Ian,

Have you selected 'View/Chart display options/Beamfinder' and ticked 'Beamfinder labels'. If you do, do you see the radar ident codes in the labels of any non-positional aircraft?

Tom

Yes it it checked.
Where can I see the ident codes in the Aircraft List?

Tibo,

You cannot see the ident codes in the aircraft list but you will be able to see them on the chart.

You must click on the Chart Options icon (blue spanner on green background) and then in the window headed 'Labels'. tick the box 'IID'.  The ID should appear in the label for all aircraft seen by your antenna including non-positional ones shown by mlat sharers.

If you double-click on any aircraft in the chart showing radar ident code then you should see the the beams from that radar head.

Having said that, sometimes the beams take a while to show, sometimes they show as intercepting a different aircraft than that chosen, and sometimes the beams do not show at all.

Tom

I can see the IID numbers.
In the attachment is a picture of it.

Not very accurate but I have to tweak the radar.txt file.

Regards,
Tibo

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Well it looks as if you are doing just as well as I do with my SBS-3.

Tom

Hmm okay, maybe I am expecting too much of it. ;)

i see a lot "mil" flight but the use only the mil code for there flight.  >:(
And i see some heavy mil aircraft.

Does anyone know why I am not receiving Alpha Jets that are flying around me?
I am using the R820T dongle on ADS-B/Mode-S.
Maybe they're using Mode-AC?

Not all aircraft have Mode-S transponders that will transmit data or respond to interrogation requests on 1090 MHz.

Okay, will there be a way to receive them? Any reason why they don't respond?
Strange that they don't use it as I can receive most of other BAF aircraft.

Just a little point on that: all interrogation requests are done on 1030 MHz, both mode S and mode A/C. Aircrafts always respond on 1090 MHz, both modes again. We are only able to receive aircraft response messages.

Alpha Jets are old aircrafts equipped with old avionics, sure they are not migrated to mode S. Remember it is not mandatory in Europe until 2020. You can receive them on mode A/C, but all you get is a transponder code and altitude.

Quote from: Breitling on May 06, 2014, 10:17:03 PM
Just a little point on that: all interrogation requests are done on 1030 MHz,

As I said, "respond to interrogation requests on 1090 MHz".  Meaning the resposne is on 1090 MHz.

Thanks for clearing that up :)

It seems that the R820T can't receive Mode-AC and Mode-S at the same time?

Quote from: Anmer on May 07, 2014, 06:12:28 AM

Quote from: Breitling on May 06, 2014, 10:17:03 PM
Just a little point on that: all interrogation requests are done on 1030 MHz,

As I said, "respond to interrogation requests on 1090 MHz".  Meaning the resposne is on 1090 MHz.

Ok, sorry Anmer. As english is not my mother tongue, maybe it's me failing to get exact meanings at sometimes. I'm pretty sure in ocassions I write down expressions that make you all open wide your eyes   ???

Quote from: TTECH on May 07, 2014, 07:29:42 AM
It seems that the R820T can't receive Mode-AC and Mode-S at the same time?

Yes it can. I'm doing it now using sergsero's ModeSdeco2 software.

And is it possible to use it at the same time when using PlanePlotter and Dump1090?
I still want to use Dump1090 as it provides useable raw data with the R820T for PP.

At the moment , only Dump1090 for PC , which is the sw TTech is using is capable of delivering useable raw data for mlats from the rtl dongles

Tibo is testing the beta version , full release together with a new version of PP is
imminent.
This is Mode S only at present.

No other programme for the dongle produces useable raw data AFAIK.

We would have to carry out specific tests with ModeSdeco2  to dermine if it produces useable data at Mode S whilst also providing Mode A/C

Thanks for the reply, satcom.

I am always pleased to help testing the ModeSdeco2 and I am looking forward to a full release of the new version.  ;)

Is it possible to have Dump1090 running for providing raw Mode-S data to PlanePlotter and at the same time have ModeSdeco2 running so I can also see Mode-AC in the Aircraft List in PlanePlotter (not providing raw data)?

At present we dont know enough about the port config on ModeSdeco2 to answer that

Bev would have to test the combined configuration .

It may be possible though but you would need two dongles on different USB slots

As an afterthought, remeber that to run PP in Mode A/C you dont need to connect to the PP network.Its a standalone feature

Consequently you could run PP on a second PC using ModeSdeco2  for Mode A/C without uploading/downloading from the PP network.

You can only see Mode A/C data on your own local traffic , so that would be one way around it.....provided of course that your radar.txt file was accurate

Ok now it's clear for me.
So I will need a second R820T receiver.

Would be great to have two receivers connected to my laptop and use PlanePlotter to display both Mode-S and Mode-AC.
I don't have two laptops so I should find a solution for using both on one laptop when mobile.